Welcome to the PleinAir Podcast with Eric Rhoads. In this episode Eric interviews Jay Moore, who had a serious near-death experience while painting outdoors.
Listen as Jay Moore also shares the following:
• How he built up his momentum as an artist and the steps that led him to being a full-time painter
• His techniques for painting water and painting distance, and the “principles for visual perception”
• The four things artists have at their disposal to enhance or subdue for a great painting
• And much more!
Bonus: This week’s PleinAir Podcast includes a Marketing Minute!
Eric Rhoads, author of Make More Money Selling Your Art, explains:
• Upselling and the best time to sell a painting (for you and the buyer)
• How the law of reciprocity can apply to selling art
Listen to the PleinAir Podcast with Eric Rhoads and Jay Moore here:
– Jay Moore: http://www.jaymoorestudio.com/
– Ask your art marketing questions: [email protected]
– Marketing Minute Podcast: https://artmarketing.com/
– Plein Air Convention & Expo: https://pleinairconvention.com/
– Plein Air Salon: https://pleinairsalon.com/
– Figurative Art Convention & Expo: https://figurativeartconvention.com/
– Sunday Coffee: https://coffeewitheric.com/
FULL TRANSCRIPT of PleinAir Podcast 158:
DISCLAIMER: The following is the output of a transcription from an audio recording of the PleinAir Podcast. Although the transcription is mostly correct, in some cases it is slightly inaccurate due to the recording and/or software transcription.
Eric Rhoads 00:00
This is episode number 158. Today we’re featuring artist Jay Moore.
This is the plein air podcast with Eric Rhodes, publisher and founder of plein air magazine. In the plenary podcast we cover the world of outdoor painting called plein air. The French coined the term, which means open air or outdoors. The French pronounce it plenn air. Others say plein air. No matter how you say it. There is a huge movement of artists around the world who are going outdoors to paint. And this show is about that movement. Now, here’s your host, author, publisher and painter, Eric Rhoads.
Eric Rhoads 00:55
Thank you Jim Kipping and welcome to the plein air podcast. I’m Eric Rhoads in this podcast is all about the outdoor painting movement. People love going outdoors to paint plein air painting because you’re outside, you’re creative, you’re challenged, you’re social, you’re traveling the world and meeting new friends having time at locations instead of a quick photo and your paintings will of course make great memories. I like to call it the new golf. Well, Time sure is flying by it’s hard to believe January is over already. Soon. We’re going to be at the plein air convention and spring will be upon us. I’m told there are as of today only 115 seats left seems impossible because they’re you know, they’re almost all gone. Anyway with this spectacular lineup if you check it out on the website plein air convention. com I suspect everybody is going to get their seats soon because nobody wants to miss out this one. This is the biggest and the best, great lineup. You don’t want to miss it. It’s a week of painting with your friends and instruction by over 80 top instructors. Plus there are people World’s Finest painters are going to They’re working with you in the field. Of course if you don’t need any help, you can just paint and have fun Of course you don’t need to pay you don’t have to paint. But if you want to you can. And so be sure and sign up at plein air convention. com We also have some new things we’re getting ready to announce about the plein air convention which might drive some tickets even further along. Also, at the convention we’re going to award $30,000 in cash prizes actually our competition is all cash the only prize that’s not cash Are you get recognition prices to like you get the cover of planner magazine or you get a story in planner magazine or you get a article in planner today, our newsletter and now those are the only things but you know a lot of people pump up and say their prizes are worth all this money when in reality, it’s not cash, we’re cash all cash and so winner gets 15,000 bucks in the cover a planner magazine. Enter your best paintings at plein air salon calm and remember that if you went Any category during the bimonthly competition, any one of them, you are entered into the annual and the annual is where the judging is done and where the big prizes take place. And so make sure to enter your paintings at plein air Salon. com enter categories. That’s one of the tricks. Also one of the other tricks is some judges like what other judges don’t like. And so when you keep entering things that haven’t won yet, you have a better chance, I would think anyway, coming up after the interview, I’m going to answer some art marketing questions in the marketing minute. And I should mention, the marketing minute now has its own podcast and so for people who might not want to listen to this podcast, which I can’t imagine why they wouldn’t, but what just marketing? Well, they can just get a podcast for the marketing minute now and and we put all the marketing minutes up as its own podcast. In the meantime, let’s get right to our interview with this excellent artist Jay Moore. Jay Moore, Welcome to the planner podcast. Hello, we’re very pleased to be on the phone with you today. I’m glad to be here. I’m glad I’m anywhere. So we’re going to talk about your career we’re going to talk about plein air painting. What else we’re going to talk about.
Jay Moore 04:21
Well, it’s up to you. It’s up to you. We can talk about what’s going on here in Colorado or any other questions you might have.
Eric Rhoads 04:29
Okay, all right, terrific. I understand that you had a near death experience when plein air painting one time Is that right?
Jay Moore 04:40
Yeah, that was pretty close. Yeah, of course call
Eric Rhoads 04:43
make sure you remind me to talk about that before we end the podcast. Sure. So how did this this painting thing begin for you?
Jay Moore 04:55
Well, I I never really thought it was something that was Unique four people, I had a next door neighbor that was a really good artist and he and I would just draw pictures for our classmates and back in sixth grade, we would sell them for 35 cents, which was what a lunch cost back then. And if it was real hard, we might charge a little bit more 50 cents for something. And then in in junior high, they they put me in a gifted and talented program where I didn’t have to take the other classes. I just did internships with other artists, professional artists, so I thought well, maybe you can make a living at this. And then in high school, my my teachers would would buy my art assignment for $20 or $30 or something. So that was enough to help convince my dad to let me to take the leap and go into art school and right out of high school.
Eric Rhoads 05:52
Your teachers were actually buying art from you. That’s cool. Yeah, and and so what happened you went to art school.
Jay Moore 06:00
So went to Colorado Institute of Art for what they called back then and advertising design degree. So it was mostly graphic arts, but there was some life drawing and color theory and things like that. And then I went into graphic design straight out of school with a firm here in Denver that was a very rigorous and high quality firm. But most people only lasted about three months there because it was such a difficult art director to work with. But I was there almost two years and that was a great learning curve for me and really helped me to be a perfectionist in what I did. Then I figured out that they were paying me about $10 an hour while they were building about $150 an hour for my illustration. So I went out and started freelancing and did that here in Denver for about 10 years and then Took a workshop from Clyde aspartic back in the 90s. Or knows, late 80s, early 90s. And I wasn’t even really supposed to get into that class. The workshop was full but the very new Art Students League of Denver was just opening down the hallway from us and, and so we let him borrow our fax machine and our copier And so, as a payback for helping them out. They let me be the the extra student in in Clyde’s class. And that was kind of the turning point for me as far as you know, making the jump from illustrator to to fine artist. You know, I remember Clyde Sanjay, you’re gonna have to paint every day, you know, you gotta paint outdoors every day. And I couldn’t quite figure out how to do that. I’m like, Well, I’m supporting the family. I got all these illustration deadline. He’s like, well, that’s up to you, but that’s what you’re gonna have to do and, and he was absolutely right. I mean, that’s what it took for me to eventually make the Make the break over to the easel painting. So that was about in the mid 90s I would say. And I’ve been doing landscapes since then.
Eric Rhoads 08:11
So, so do you still do go out every day? Do you still go on every day?
Jay Moore 08:16
No, I don’t go out every day. Now I do mostly studio painting but when I started to find out, I was just newly married and we you know, barely had enough money to pay for the class civics class. And so I just slept in my car and and took a bath in the river up in the mountains, you know, before the workshop and you know, did it that way and then when I started playing our painting, I would just go by the grocery store and then drive down a dirt road and paint my way along and at the end of the road, I would not sunset or just keep painting and tried to pick a spot at the end of the day that was near a lake or a river in my fish for my dinner. If I caught a fish I had dinner. I didn’t. I didn’t Then I did that for about five years it was all you know every day was plein air painting because I couldn’t afford a studio and was just trying to get as much practice as possible so so you’re a dying art dealers would Yeah, well I’m I grew up in the mountains so I’m comfortable just driving up in the mountains and grow my sleeping bag on the ground. And I’ve spent a lot of nights under the stars so I’m pretty, pretty comfortable out in the woods that way. My brothers were on the Alpine rescue team, so they kind of taught me survival stuff. So yeah, first it was just pure plein air painting. And then, you know, in all sizes, I would do you know, eight by 10s all the way up to almost 30 by 40 out on location, and then I would sell them to art dealer here in Denver. I had all these plein air paintings and so I didn’t know what to do with them. So I put a dozen or so in a coffee shop in downtown Denver and an hour dealer called me, he said, I’d like to talk to you. I’m like, Okay. And he says, No, today I want to talk to you. So he ended up representing my work for about five or seven years. And then he introduced me to another idea learning. So I was kind of under the radar for quite a while, you know, they were saying, while he’s, they sold 100 paintings a year, for about 10 years in a row that way. So we’re, you know, mostly small, I mean, you know, they’re playing artworks and, and not very expensive, but it really helped to get a base under me. And, and so then slowly started getting into gallery representation, you know, after during that period, but that’s, you know, a little bit different path than, than some others and, you know, just some of the different person would have seen him in a coffee shop if I would have put them on a different path. You know, a lot of a lot of ways that could have gone differently, but I was really, you know, felt happy to be able to make a living, painting outside. And at the time, I thought that was the greatest thing.
Eric Rhoads 11:08
I want to go back, I want to go back to what you said about what Clyde told you about the idea of getting out every day for the people who were kind of starting out or listening or trying to figure out how to up their game. Talk about why that principles important and what you discover through the period of time.
Jay Moore 11:30
So, I mean, obviously you need you need momentum, right? I mean, it’s hard to just get good at anything, just with fits and starts. I’m play golf my whole life. And there’s kind of a lot of analogies between being a good painter and a good golfer is it’s about you know, it’s extremely difficult for one thing, but to really get a rhythm. You have to get the momentum from the day before and the day before and, you know, I was Painting from sunrise to sunset. So I would do, you know, four or five paintings a day for, you know, up to a week in a row, and then I would, you know, take a nap in the middle of the day, it’s a pretty arduous and especially in the summertime when you have a lot more daylight. So, you know, I just got a lot of a lot of practice, but that, you know, observation and learning and catching the line, you know, you get to where you get pretty, pretty confident there could be a little fleeting lighting situation, you know, it’s stormy, and then the sun just comes out, you know, and hits the peak, you know, just for a few minutes and you’ve, you’ve got the confidence to try to capture that you know, and what you end up doing is you get really good at anticipating and remembering. So you, you see a potential for a view. And so maybe it’s a sunrise and so you kind of anticipate, okay, the sun’s going to come up at this angle and cast a shadow here. And then you know, Wham there it is. And you know, you get about five minutes of that, and then it changes. So you’ve got to remember, remember what it was like. So playing a painting for me is about anticipating and remembering because the light changes so fast that you can’t, you can’t follow the shadows and change the colors as the colors change. So you’ve got to pick a spot, you know, and I usually do that or pick a lighting situation. And I usually do that with a thumbnail or a series of thumbnails kind of, you know, playing around with the composition so that when I start painting, I know you know, I have a pretty good idea what the painting is going to look like. And then you know, you kind of guess as best you can, what the sky color is going to be or what where that shadow is going to be. And then when that moment arrives, you just make minor little corrections to the shapes or the colors. So rather than you know in basketball, it’s not you’re not shooting three pointers, you’re doing layups, you know, you’re, you’re just making minor little adjustments and then you can get pretty close to where you want it to be when that moment arrived? So, so that’s kind of, you know, how I, how I got into plein air painting and I, when I was selling with these art dealers back then there really wasn’t even I don’t even know if people were familiar with the word plane error on location or what that meant versus just when they saw a landscape they didn’t know whether it was indoors or outdoors. So I, I had a film crew follow me for a day in the life of my painting. And up in the mountains of Colorado in the wintertime, we got there, you know, they started filming before the sun rose and and, you know, we hiked around and walked across these frozen rivers, you know, I could have broken through it anytime I got it on film, but and then I would they edited it down to 15 minutes and put music to it and everything and then we would hand out that VHS tapes to collectors to kind of let them know what goes into a painting. But, you know, at at that point, you know, I was just doing completely plein air paintings, you know, no studio work. So from the beginning to the end was, was all done outside.
Eric Rhoads 15:18
So studio work. So that’s kind of how that got started. Sounds like studio work has kind of taken over.
Jay Moore 15:26
Well it has only and that started to do more. So once we once I had children, I just didn’t want to be gone that much. I didn’t want to leave my wife home alone for long periods of time. And so the five years of pure playing or painting was when I was married but didn’t have any children. And so once my son started to be born, I started to curtail in my trips and curtail my trips and try to be around more and try to be more efficient, you know, with being outside so the paintings got Smaller in the field and they ended up being just field studies. And then you know, for larger works in the studio, which is what I still do today, I don’t really compete. I mean, I’m complete large canvases out in the field anymore. So usually just nine by 12 or six by eight,
Eric Rhoads 16:16
how do you get the information that you need? In a study? You take a study and convert that into a large painting you trying to keep the same energy brushstrokes, obviously colors and things, but are you adding a lot more detail and how do you how do you get that detail for the studio painting coming out of your head coming out of a photo booth
Jay Moore 16:43
I do a lot of editing with the field study. And like most artists do, you know you take this tree out or make this mountain a little higher or, you know, do a lot of editing. So I use my decisions that I made in the field study that kind of sets the the composition and the The colors and everything. But as far as information, data detail, then I use photos for that. But I’m trying to keep the, the mood and the initial idea, you know, preserved from the field study because as any plein air painter knows, you know that energy is like lightning in a bottle, you can’t reproduce it in the studio. So, you know, I keep those decisions, those big decisions that were made in the field and incorporate those into a larger painting. But when if it’s a painting that where you’re trying to create depth, for example, you’re up on a mountain and you’re looking down a valley and maybe you see 3040 or even, you know, round Colorado here you can see for, you know, 60 or more miles in a field study that, you know, you’re just making little color notes, but in a larger painting, you can create those layers of atmosphere and layers of, you know, detail and recession to really, you know, Trying to make that feel like depth. Or if you’re, you know, painting water. In a field study, of course, you’re just dashing little colors, notes in but in a larger painting, you can really make it feel like reflection really make it feel like water movement, and you’ve seen down through the water into the stones below. And so if you know, a studio painting, you can really go with your initial idea, but but make it more you can say a lot more with it and try to fool the eye, you know, a lot more on a larger scale.
Eric Rhoads 18:36
So, a lot of times people listening to this want to hear some technique. You know, it’s surprising how many different artists approach things completely different ways. Why don’t you talk for a minute about painting water, and also talk for a minute about painting distance because I think people would find both of those fascinating
Jay Moore 19:00
There are principles in what makes your I feel like it’s water. I mean, water doesn’t have a shape that doesn’t have a color. It has a surface, but you can see through the surface, which makes it different than an apple, for example. So you have to create this illusion that your brain completes in your mind. So there, it comes to a principle that Wilson Hurley turned me on to it’s called principles of visual perception to where the seeing actually happens in the brain, not in the eye. So it goes from the front of your eye, of course, it crosses over to the other hemisphere, and goes to the back of your brain and filters through all of your life experiences. And it comes up with an answer of what you’re actually seeing. So if someone had had never seen a river, I don’t know how maybe they were raised in the desert or something and they went to you know, look at Pictures, they wouldn’t see it the same way as maybe a fly fisherman would see this river. So a fly fisherman will look and say, Well, I can tell how deep that is, I can tell you know how clear it is I can tell where the fish might hang out. So these are all filtered through your experiences. So what I’m trying to do and I think water or distance depth, is what are the cues that your mind is looking for that read that it sees when it sees water, and these are all subconscious. So like what makes water look like a reflect what makes a reflection look like it’s the surface of the water rather than just a different color next to a different color. So there are certain things that happen on a reflection, the dark, get lighter, and the lights get darker. So for example, when light if you’ve ever been under the water and you see the sunlight kind of shining down through the sunrise coming through the water That shows you that some of the light is absorbed beneath the surface. So not all of the light is reflected in in water. There’s not a perfect mirror. So the colors get richer, and the lights get darker and the darks get lighter. So that’s one principle. So there’s about, I don’t know, maybe 20 to 50 different principles for each circumstance, whether it’s a lake or a stream of the rapids, you know, the Missouri River or we’re a high, you know, clear mountain stream. So, you know, the, the glacial water in Canada is different than the water in Colorado is different than the, you know, the water in, you know, the desert somewhere. So, you know, is there glacial silt in the water? Is there algae is there, a mud is there, you know, what is happening in the water so there’s not really a recipe of you know, this is How to paint water. But there are principles that kind of apply in most cases. And you know, the edges get softer. For example, if you have a really texture, grassy bank, and then you have a really calm water below it, well then, of course, that texture of the grass is going to be softened in the reflection. So that’s another principle. So when I look at water, I’m looking for those principles. And I’m like a hockey there’s one. Yep, the darks do get lighter. Okay, and then Yep, the edges do get softer, okay, then you keep looking for these other notes. Then you’re, you’re not really copying what’s in front of you. You’re just taking those principles and and, you know, enhancing it. The more you enhance those principles, the more it looks like water. It’s almost like doing a caricature of someone you know, it’s a portrait but even exaggerated their characteristics to wear really looks like them. And that’s The same way when you paint waters, if you take those characteristics and kind of enhance them, then it almost looks more like what the actual, actual view. Interesting, you can see down into
Eric Rhoads 23:12
the water. Interesting, you should say this because, you know, many artists will say paint what you see, I just attended a David lafell workshop. And David said, don’t paint what you see paint what you know is right. In other words, there are certain principles that he always puts into a painting, you know, for instance, warm shadows. And even though you might be seeing cool shadows, he’s saying no, no, make him warm. So is this the kind of thing you’re referring to is knowing that there are certain things that just always seem to ring true?
Jay Moore 23:48
Yeah, and I call them like unlocking the key. So once you’ve done enough, I mean, the key that unlocks, you know, the secret so once you’ve painted outside long enough, you start to See these patterns these repetitions of Oh yeah, the last time I painted water that that was true there too. And so then the next time Oh yeah, here it is again. And so you these repetitions and it’s the same whether you’re painting snow or clouds or trees or you know, literally anything flesh stones. You see these repetitions of what this other what this characteristic is of whatever you’re painting. And once you can unlock those secrets or those patterns, then you can make whatever scene you want look completely realistic, even though it’s not really what’s in front of you. So, you know, if if people say well, my paintings look like a photo I, I see what you should see the photo, because this is nothing like the photo. I’ve just taken these principles and I’ve made it what I want to make it as you know, you can you can change the shoreline of a lake or you can make the river deeper if you want or you can move clouds around or you can change the world. landscape however you want, once you know the secrets of, you know, these patterns of nature and they’re all over and, you know, even if you’ve been doing this for decades, you still, I can still look for these nuances.
Eric Rhoads 25:14
So is it something that comes from doing or is that something that if you were to teach it, you could articulate each one of those principles in different situations?
Jay Moore 25:27
Oh, yeah, I can share you I could share with, you know, a student. Some of the secrets I’ve found, you know, I’m like, I just mentioned a couple of them. Yeah. And then they can observe and for themselves, I mean, I don’t don’t take my word for it. Go see if I’m right. And, you know, when you look at a river, see if I might, and then then that did mix it painting a whole lot easier because you’re not copying. You’re just, you’re just interpreting and this is the case with, I remember when I was first taking life drawing, they said you could tell a really good painter or an artist, by how much how many times they had to look up at the model. And the new novice artists were, you know, looking up every you know, they look up three times and then make one stroke and look up three times to make one stroke. But the Masters would look up one time and then, you know, make 20 strokes and look up one time and make 20 because they’re just looking they know what, what they expect to see. And then they’re just checking Is that true? Yep, that’s true. So then they can just, you know, make 20 strokes based on that and then they look up and check. Yep, that’s true. And and just the same way with plein air painting is you don’t need a you know, you don’t need a ton of time or a ton of reference. You don’t need three or four hours. If you know what you’re expecting to see. You can spend most of your time painting and and just kind of double checking yourself when you’re Looking at So, thinking goes a lot faster that way. It’s not like it’s a formula, it’s, you know, like I said, it’s different with every water situation, for example, or there’s, you know, lots of different kinds of clouds and lots of different kinds of trees, but your, your level of observation, just get so tuned into what you what you’re looking at and what you’re, what you’re looking for, is that you’re not overwhelmed with the, with the mass amount of detail and information, you’re just looking for a very specific answers. And once you get those, you’re like, Okay, I know like how to do that. And so that’s kind of how I approach you know, painting in the field and then even more so when I get into the studio, I can really play with those principles and enhance them.
Eric Rhoads 27:52
Now, what about distance
Jay Moore 27:55
so in distance in the book JOHN Carlson Carlson’s guide to landscapes. He does a pretty good job of describing what happens in depth. There are, there are four to meet, in my way of working is there are four things that an artist can use at their disposal to enhance or subdue, and their color, contrast, detail, and edges. And so the closer something is, the more color the more contrast, the more detailed the more edges, the harder the edges, the further away, you start to lose those. And there’s from the, from the color spectrum, there are certain colors that disappear first and then second, and then third. You know, yellow is the first and an orange and then red and then green, and blue. So that’s why mountains in the distance are, are blue because of the wavelength of that color. But but that’s pretty easy. To understand, and that’s another one of those keys that, you know, it’s not just one thing that makes something look like it’s further away. It’s, you know, it’s a series of things just like with the reflection, it’s a series of these secrets. And some of them are obvious, you know, things in the distance get smaller. Well, that’s, that’s perspective one on one. But there’s a lot of other things that you have to do to really convince the eye that, that that’s depth and the more that I paint, when I create distance, I just don’t want to create an arbitrary distance, I want to create the exact distance. So if there’s a tree that’s 150 yards off into the distance, I want to lose the color the contrast detail and edges that’s appropriate for 150 yards away. And then if there’s another tree, you know, 50 yards behind that I want to look like it’s exactly 60 yards behind that, and if there’s a mountain that you know, 10 miles away, I want it to look like 10 miles away, not two miles away and not 20 miles away. So how do you do though? through observation, I mean, through, you know, the only way really is, is by direct observation, you’re not gonna, obviously, photographs not going to tell you that accurate information is what how much of the edges you lose at that distance. It has to be your two eyes, you know, with binocular vision, seeing that depth of three dimensions.
Eric Rhoads 30:30
So let’s just, let’s probe it for just a second because I think probably a lot of people are curious about this. Let’s use your example of a tree that’s 10 feet in front of you and a tree that’s 50 feet back. Obviously, you’ve got perspective that can in enhance that, that sense of the tree, you know, one’s going to be closer and taller one’s going to be further back and maybe not as tall. But do the values, essentially stay the same, but get grade back, let’s say the tree trunk. How do you think about that?
Jay Moore 31:08
So it really goes back to the the four things that that’s how I think about it with my own painting as I try to simplify it down, simplify it down to these four things. So color I look at, okay, how does the color change as it goes off into the distance? Is it lighter, darker, more red or blue. So lighter, darker, warmer, cooler on color. Contrast is what happens with the lights and the darks, what happens with the highlights and the shadows, so they get closer together as it gets further away. But as I’m looking at these two trees, you can just look at the two and compare. Okay, I compare the dark against the dark and I compare the light against the light and then the edges your eye. Now, there’s a whole nother discussion on how our eye sees but if you whatever you focus on becomes a hard edge when you’re the way our Eyes didn’t my eyes made there’s a tiny little phobia in the back of my retina that keeps our laser beam focus. But if you look at one look at the foreground tree and don’t move your eye, and with your peripheral vision, how much of how much detail Can you see on that distant tree? That’s what you should be painting.
Eric Rhoads 32:19
So that brings, oh, that brings up a great debate. I can think of two different artists who have two differing opinions on that subject. One, I won’t mention names, one artists would say, I want everything to be in focus so that as the eye moves around, it’s in focus when they look at it. The other one would say no, I want to force them to focus on one particular thing, and soften and and make less dramatic the other things so that I’m controlling where the eye goes, which are you controlling?
Jay Moore 32:55
I’d say go to the masters. Go to the museums and see what they do.
Eric Rhoads 33:00
And you’ll know that these guys are masters.
Jay Moore 33:04
Well, I know but I mean, as far as how I would perceive it, well, I’ve done because I wanted to find the answer to that question too. It’s a it’s a big answer. So I went to the museums and I went up to a whole room, I went to the Metropolitan Museum and there’s a whole room of Rembrandt’s in there. And it hit me over the head like a sledgehammer that these are 90% soft edges, and only 10% so hard edges. So then I would go, you know, into john, you know, john Singer Sargent painting, and I look up to 90%, soft edges. 10% harder, just, and then I would go to know, you know, a landscape painter that I respect and a BA, I’ll be darned. You know, you go to a Richard Schmidt painting and you say, how many hard ages and how many soft edges. So I’ll let the artists make their own decisions on that. But for me, I really I’m very careful about edginess. And I like I think that in my opinion if if there’s hard edges everywhere, it’s hard for your eyes to take all that in.
Eric Rhoads 34:09
Good. Thank you for that that was very helpful. So help help everybody understand how you would approach a plein air painting? What is your process? Do you start with a thumbnail?
Jay Moore 34:24
Yeah, I always do. I’m very, very strict about that, whether even if it’s the leading light situation, I always start with the thumbnail because that’s where the big decisions are made. The amount of time you invest in it in a two or three minute thumbnail is like an insurance policy for not wasting the next two or three hours. You make all your big decisions there where you’re, you know where your focal points going to be wherever your big shapes. You know, if it’s a case where the shadows are moving quickly, you lock in your shadows and if thumbnail and then you don’t move on no matter what you know. So if It’s not your thumbnail, you don’t put it in your painting period. And I’ve ruined a lot of paintings early on trying to, you know, passingly in later that weren’t in pardon.
Eric Rhoads 35:11
Jay Moore 35:13
Yeah, right, it keeps you from chasing the light and being, you know, sidetracked by something else that happens later on. And if you know if I’m painting a meadow, and you know the mountain behind it, and all of a sudden, you know, a big bull elk comes wandering into the meadow. It’s tempting to put him in but that’s for another painting, you know, finish your painting, then, you know, you can do another painting of the elec later. So if something amazing happens in the middle of your painting, that’s fine. That’s another painting for another time but maybe do a little you know, sketch of it or take a picture or something. But, you know, don’t, don’t change horses midstream on your first painting or, or you’re going to end up trouble, at least at least I always did. It’s great advice. So I’m I’m very strict about that. And then I. So once I have the thumbnail, I follow the thumbnail. So I make little tick marks on the side of my thumbnail, like right in the middle halfway mark on horizontal and vertical. And then on my canvas, I make the same little tick marks, so that I can convey the drawing of my thumbnail over to my canvas and proportion because in my thumbnail, I’m making very quick intuitive decisions about you know, sizes and relationships and composition. And you know, these are just, you know, I’m in the heat of the moment, you’re all excited the lights right there. And so these these quick decisions are part of your subconscious that are way smarter than what we could sit down and analyze. So I’m really trusted that first impression, and that boozy gasm and I copy the thumbnail literally over to my little cameras, and then I start tearing away you know, painting the colors as fast as I can. But if I’ve locked in those shadows, even if it takes me another 10 or 15 minutes in the shadows that shifted a little, I’ve got him locked in on my thumbnail. So if I ever get lost about where the shadows should be, you know, I just go back and say, Oh yeah, that shadow stretches all the way over here. And that’s my initial idea and I don’t, I don’t vary from that.
Eric Rhoads 37:19
You try to connect your shadows.
Jay Moore 37:22
I try to I try to keep my paintings within three or four main shapes. So yeah, sometimes that means either connecting them or if they’re separate, I make them two different values.
Eric Rhoads 37:34
So they’re like two different shapes. Okay. So the rest of your payment process once you get your shadows laid down, what’s next? First off Are you starting with an undertone are you going straight on to white canvas?
Jay Moore 37:48
I know I pretty much paint straight in. I used to tell my canvas but there was you know times where you know if you if you put a warm wash on your Canvas and then you’re trying to paint you know, snow or something and then you’re, you know, just kind of I just worked better for me to just paint directly just finish as I go. So once I have my my sketch on my panel I try to hit I think Kevin McPherson hit on this where you said the first brush stroke make sure you can nail it, you know, stick it you know the right color the right value that on your first brush stroke and then and then you compare that your next color to that first color that’s right on. And I know other artists kind of approximate Washington and it works well for them to kind of work their way to the finish but I just kind of finished as I go, and try to be accurate to accurate to accurate rather than approximate to approximate to approximate. And then that way your your brushstrokes are part of your finished piece. I mean it’s it’s all it’s all the freedom all at once you know you dash it in and leave it and you kind of know it At a time what you’re what you’re trying to achieve with this particular painting and you know if it’s the strong shadows or if it’s the one light or if it’s the texture or whatever your initial concept is. That’s another thing that I really learned as I got older is this to really have a definite idea with the painting what your what your goal your objective is, what do you have to say? Why did you paint this not just because it’s pretty but you know, early on I would just paint a tree or a rock or you know, tractor or whatever, but I didn’t have any emotion into it. It was just kind of copying what was in front of me. And nowadays, I try to really think what you know, what about this tractor? Why Why am I interested in this? You know, and I think Well, my grandfather had a tractor or you know, so get yourself kind of invested in. What do I like about this tractor? Is it the the shape of it? Is it the color? Is it the Tina is it the shadows on it is it the form is it you know, and then once you find that out, let’s say it’s the patina, then everything on that painting has to make the patina stand out, you know, it’s like a star of a of a play, and then all the supporting characters. So you can’t have all, you know, can’t have everybody, you know, singing the same level at the same time, you have to have one lead, and then the other supporting cast and so if it’s the pig Tina on the tractor, then you might decide to gray down the grass a little bit to make the color of that rough, you know, pop out a little bit more. So you do subordinate other areas to enhance what your main purpose in painting the painting is. And so that’s another one of those things where you don’t copy exactly what is in front of you. You have a statement and something you You want to say personally and then you make changes to to enhance that?
Eric Rhoads 41:06
So would you say that you have a Jay Moore style
Jay Moore 41:11
I don’t know. Other people have said that but i just every painting dictates what the style would be. So if it’s if the whole theme of the painting is dramatic lighting, then that dictates how I put the paint down. If the whole thing is you know, texture on snow, then that dictates if the whole painting is you know, a vast distance then then that dictates it. I don’t I don’t always start in the same place. I don’t always start with the darkest dark and I sometimes I start with the lightest light and you know, get that kid in first. It’s just, I really don’t have Any formulas about how I approach any any particular painting I, like I said, I pick the pick what compelled me to do this painting and then even how I start the painting is dictated by whatever that decision is. To make sure that I can, you know, nail it and get it. You know, just what I’m after.
Eric Rhoads 42:21
So talk to me about some of your experiences, painting outdoors.
Jay Moore 42:28
Well, I with all that time painting outdoors it was, you have a lot of stories to tell because there’s a lot of, you know, there’s times that I’ve discovered while I’ve discovered wildfires and tried to put them out myself, there’s times where I have had encounters with animals. There’s been times where I, you know, nearly drowned. There’s been times where we were, we went up by helicopter into the Canadian Rockies and a storm came in and the radio That the helicopter supposed to come pick me up and the radio wasn’t working and the and the clouds were the cloud ceiling was dropping So, you know things can get kind of hairy you know, let alone the cold and average discomfort but you know I’ve got literally dogs lightning bolts before where it hits so close to you can smell the sulfur. You know it’s so nice. It’s hard to keep a journal. I have journal notes of those years and still still do still keep them but so I can go back or maybe my grandchildren could go back and, you know, read the accounts of what grandpa used to do out in the woods with the paintbrush.
Eric Rhoads 43:39
So how did that helicopter trip come out? Obviously you made it through it.
Jay Moore 43:45
Yeah, it well, we, we we started communicating by clicks like I could hear them clicking and we could hear them talking and like Should we go get Jay and like Well, no, let’s wait for him to call us. He may not be finished yet. And so I’m like clicking away. Is that you click, click, you know, it’s like one click for Yes, two clicks for now. So we kind of communicated that way and then found out I was done ready to be picked up. So he, you know, flew the helicopter up and we had to go, we just had to go down in the valleys and back to my journal notes. You know, we were like 10 feet off the ground, on our way back. And I remember telling the pilot, I’m like, why are we so close to the ground? And he’s like, well, clouds and helicopters and mountains don’t mix. So he was just having to go down the valley. And we didn’t come back the way we came in. We had to go back the opposite way because that’s where the valley was. So we had to go fly a lot longer to get back and stay underneath the, the cloud ceiling. But you know, if those clouds would have dropped faster, who knows? Yeah, we would have gotten out of there. For your fight, the radio didn’t work, you know, that much sooner. You know, who knows? But
Eric Rhoads 45:00
So was that your near death experience?
Jay Moore 45:05
No, that was the near death experience was almost drowning in Alaska. Oh yeah, there’s It’s a long story. But it was we flew way back in the middle of nowhere in Alaska brisco Bay, we fly south of big salmon about an hour there’s a place called you Kashuk lakes. And so this is collector from Chicago. Pardon me to go up there he was there with me and he wanted paintings of these lakes. So we brought our fly rods and and all of my plein air painting gear and I was supposed to stay there for three days while they you know, they fish the first day and then we’re going to leave and you know, so I started taking a few pictures and kind of scouting around the the area and he started crossing this river that was between the two lakes. It was a you know, big river but you could wait it from island to island and so I was trying to follow him from island to island. I had my camera in one hand and my fly right in the other hand and I started getting washed downstream I must not across the exact same gravel bar that he was on and so I remember you know, watching the water go up my waiters up to my belt to my chest to my armpits and everything and don’t swamp whatever you do don’t swamp and I had neoprene waders on because the water was so cold and I was not wearing a chest strap, which you’re always supposed to do. So sure enough, the water started swapping started pouring into my waders. You know, like a torrent once it started, it just really poured in there. And so I remember being on my tippy toes. You know, on the gravel, I was losing purchase. I was going down into the lakes and I was thinking my camera I can’t lose my camera. Really my condition and so I’m trying to hold my camera Viraat up and swim at the same time while this river is taking me out into the middle of the lake and so, I was a swimmer when I was younger so I didn’t panic or anything, I just I dropped my camera around my neck and started swimming as hard as I could vertically to try to get out of the current and kept swimming and swimming and swimming hard as I could and and the two collectors that were with me they just said they looked back and heard this little like somebody taking their last breath and they looked over and all that was sticking out was my chin and my nose out of the water. So they go running down the bank and you know, I was so far away, they couldn’t really get to me but I broke through the current I remember feeling that sensation of not feeling the current anymore. And I just kept swimming and you know, hard as I could and got over to the to the bank and get my news on all fours instead of prayer and was safe sort of because then they know it was raining in the water was about 41 degrees. Oh no and so then I started shivering violently. And bush pilot wasn’t supposed to be back for 10 hours so my next worry was hypothermia, so knowing kind of a little bit about outdoors I knew I had to get out of my clothes and thankfully there was an old Eskimo shack there that was covered in moss and kind of yucky inside but I went in there and got out of the rain and and got out of my dry clothes and and after a couple hours you know stop shivering and and then I thought, well, we’ve got all this time and my camera shot. So I just I saw them out there fishing so but well, you better get back on the horse right here my waiters back on and went back out and got back in the river and kept fishing the rest of the day was but it was it was close. And when That night, the salty old bush pilot. He made everybody raise a glass at the restaurant that night that I was still alive. And so I said Why? What you know, thank you see, so, you know, she said that was close he said the last guy that did that he said he’s still at the bottom of the lake. So it was within, you know, I don’t know, short amount of time of either getting out of that current or not. And, and so I haven’t debated about whether to tell my wife about it. When I got home. I was afraid she wouldn’t let me go out on any more painting excursions.
Eric Rhoads 49:36
Well, now the world knows.
Jay Moore 49:39
Yeah, well, there you go.
Eric Rhoads 49:41
So that’s a great story any any others? Maybe got got one more from your journal that would be might be fun to share.
Jay Moore 49:51
Um, well, there was one where I was painting the show up in Summit County, Colorado, along the Blue River which is where I love to paint from My favorite spots and I like to paint when it’s real cold because you get these little ice shelf on the shore of the river. So, I don’t know, it was about 15 degrees or something like that. And I was out walking this, the bank of the river to, you know, see where we’re good spot to paint was and I saw another pair of footprints out there and I said, What in the world I mean this is, you know Daybreak and it’s freezing. You know, it’s too cold for fishermen. So I started looking closer and it was mountain lion tracks. Definitely, it was just being me and this mountain lion were the only two out there and you know, mountain lion are pretty stealthy anyway. But when you have a mountain lion and snow, they’re pretty much completely silent. So I was I was just always looking over my shoulder thinking that anytime this morning, you know scoober could come down. What they do is you never hear me just feel them hit on the back of your neck. Right and they they bite on the back of their neck, your neck. So that was kind of running chills up my spine that morning because I you wouldn’t I would never know it would just be your you’re okay or you’re not okay. And, you know, you’ll no matter how vigilant you try to be, you know, they’re they’re pretty they’re I’m more afraid of them than I am grizzly bears because you can see a grizzly and know where they are but mines are a different, different kind of danger. It’s a photo. Yeah, yeah, they well or rocks or, you know, they, they’re, you know, they’re excellent predators. They know exactly what they’re doing and you’re, you’re just a sitting duck, you know, out there if they if they wanted to. So, but there’s lots of, you know, lots of different stories of, you know, things some are minor, some are major, but, but just, you know, I think that’s an awfully Listen to your, you know, other podcasts where, you know, that’s what draws artists to plein air painting is just these experiences that when you’re standing there and you’re quiet, and you’re painting, it’s not like you’re it’s like you’re a fisherman or hunter or even a hiker, you’re just completely still, it’s almost like you’re in a deer stand. And then the animals come to you. Like, I’ve had snowshoe hares Come and sit right by my feet like a puppy. Because I could tell that I wasn’t. There wasn’t a threat and I’ve seen you know, I’ve had otters and mink and I’ve seen you know, deer come and battle right in front of me or you know, two bucks battling and they never even knew I was there. They just went at it and fought and ran awesome. I was just a silent spectator but but whether you’re witnessing a sunrise or you know animals or you know, or just the river flowing by, I mean your You’re in a very unique position when you’re playing or painting you’re, you’re a silent observer to all these things that go on.
Eric Rhoads 53:07
And afellow told me one time a photographer by the name of Fred picker who studied with Ansel Adams. Fred always said the best photographs and I think this also applies to paintings. The best photographs come from the person willing to get up the earliest walk the furthest and and be patient for you know the right moment because sometimes there is a right moment you know, when the light just nails it.
Jay Moore 53:41
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. That’s been my experiences and so many times will I’m go hiking, I get up at three in the morning to try to be where I want to be, you know, be at the lake by sunrise, not just, you know, have my first coffee. You know, most people are having their coffee when all this drama is going on, and many times I’ve hiked down the trail and people are hiking up and I’m thinking to myself, you guys just missed the most spectacular show while you were, you know, brushing your teeth down there.
Eric Rhoads 54:10
So we got a sunrise and that sunrise essentially you know the color is hitting for about five to seven minutes tops. Do you get in there try to kind of put in some basic architecture, so to speak some, you know, some bones so you kind of have certain things in place and then you just slice in the color. What do you do? How do you be prepared for sunrise sunrises are I think harder than sunsets because at least in sunsets, you can see what what’s going to be silhouetted.
Jay Moore 54:45
Well, there’s two ways to do that. And you’re right you don’t it’s kind of a surprise. In the different times a year the angle of the Sun is different. You know, it’s different in summer than it is in the winter because of the the amount of daylight but so even if you look at a peak The shadow is going to be different in June and it’s going to be in December but either one I’ve been there before. So I’ve kind of seen it and missed it or you know, saw it for my car or you know, wasn’t able to didn’t have my paints with me or something. So I kind of make a mental note, you know, sunrise on this peak is spectacular. Or, if I’m going to a place I haven’t been I’ll go on online, and let’s say I’m painting you know, Glacier National Park or something. And I’ll look at you know, as many pictures of iceberg Lake as I can, even though I’ve never been there. And you kind of say, Okay, this is kind of what it looks like in the summer, you know, in the summertime and fall and, and you kind of get a general idea where the shadows lay or how the configuration is of the, you know, of what you’re painting that particular lake or mountain. And then I also use topo maps, so topographical maps that orient where the rise and you know, the fall of the land is so if I’m hiking, I can figure out okay, I don’t Want to be on the trail right here, if I hike up to this little point, I can get a view of the whole valley, which is a much better perspective of this view than just down, you know, in the valley where the trail it. So I also use those maps to kind of plan out what my day is. And then on a plane or painting trip, I, I kind of set my temporary like, I’ll paint Okay, this angle in the morning. And then I’ll go over here and do a midday painting and then work my way down, do another one mid afternoon and then for sunset, I’ll try to drive 10 miles down the road and, and you know, capture this other scene that I that is a sunset kind of thing. So kind of charted out, and then you can be very productive. And once you finish, you pack up and go right to the next spot and try to get ready for that. So that’s just how I do it. I don’t know how other father artists do it differently, but I just try to be as productive as possible when I’m out there.
Eric Rhoads 56:53
Well, Jay, this has been a really terrific interview. You’ve got lots of great stories. Do you have any final thoughts for everybody listening
Jay Moore 57:02
No, I just said, you know, paint from life. I, you know, I hear artists that email me questions and say they’ve been trying to paint from photographs and I really don’t know how to answer a question if you’ve been painful. Because it gives you, you know, a lot of the wrong information. But as long as you’re painting for life, then you know, a lot of these things are going to you’re going to take care of themselves naturally like the how to create depth or you know how to see water or you know, the true colors. So, even if you’re doing figures are still life or landscape, whatever you decide to paint, you know, paint and draw from life because it’s even a different part of your brain than copying. So I can teach people to copy to render. That’s I can take people off the sidewalk and show them how to copy a comic book or you know, render a picture out of a National Geographic. That’s just you know, item for item but when you’re in outdoors, you’re taking three dimensional 3d Dimensions into two. And that you have to use a different part of your brain for that. And so it’s, you’re forced to interpret what you’re seeing. And so that’s when it starts to become art. And that’s when it starts to become using your, your style, your personality and your preferences. And, and so that’s what all happens.
Eric Rhoads 58:19
Terrific. Where can we see your work?
Jay Moore 58:24
Well, I have my studio here in Parker, Colorado, which is just south of Denver, about 45 minutes from the airport. So anybody’s welcome to come by and see new work here. I also show a sax gallery in Cherry Creek and dender. And with a story of fine art in Jackson Hole, and your website, my website is J more studio.com. All right, terrific.
Eric Rhoads 58:49
Well, you may have a rash of people showing up during the plein air convention in Denver in May.
Jay Moore 58:53
Well, that’d be nice. I just say just text me or email me email is the best way to set up an appointment but I’d be more than happy to meet as many people as I can.
Eric Rhoads 59:01
All right, well, thank you for being on the plein air podcast.
Jay Moore 59:04
My pleasure. Thanks for having me.
Eric Rhoads 59:06
Thanks again to Jay Moore, what great stories and what a wonderful artist. Thank you, Jay. Are you ready for some marketing ideas?
This is the marketing minute with Eric Rhoads, author of the number one Amazon bestseller make more money selling your art proven techniques to turn your passion into profit.
Eric Rhoads 59:25
In the marketing minute I try to answer art marketing questions from our audience so we can help you sell more art. Somebody asked me if I make up questions Yeah, once in a while I do and usually I say if I made it up, but most people just email their questions to me [email protected]. At my other conference, the figurative art convention and Expo face which we held in Williamsburg. I held a marketing session and somebody has sent a question that said that I had mentioned that I sold three paintings to somebody who was in Interested in a single painting from my Cuba trip and what I explained that a little bit more so here’s what it was. Essentially I took a group of 100 plein air painters to Cuba for the first time, which was kind of historical. So one of the galleries in Annapolis decided to hold a show. Most of us are many of us anyway sent three paintings to the show. I sold one other sold several. Anyway, several months after the show. A guy who had bought one of my paintings had been following me on Instagram. And I had posted a picture of an old Ford that I painted, or maybe an old Chevy that’s what it was an old Chevy that I painted. And anyway, the original painting was the whole street scene and the car and I decided I didn’t like the composition. So I actually took the board and cut it down. But there was a whole nother painting leftover. That was still a pretty good painting. It just was like the streets of Cuba. And so anyway, this guy bought the painting on Instagram and when he bought it, I insisted Blue to the other painting and I sent a note told him what happened said here, here’s an extra painting, because you could frame it and put it next to it. But it was originally part of the original thing. And I said, by the way, here are a couple of other things that you might like. And I put pictures of other paintings and physical pictures. And he contacted me. And he said, Yeah, I want to buy these other pictures too. And he ended up buying three and so totally four paintings from me. And the Law of Reciprocity kicked in. And I’m going to talk about that the next question, but the idea that I gave him something a little extra send a nice personal note, offered something else to him when he was buying was an opportunity for him to buy more. So I think that’s a good time. One of the best times to sell a painting is when a painting is just been sold. We get dopamine in our system. When we get out our credit card. We feel good, we’re buying something, we’re inclined to buy more. That’s why they have all that stuff at the cash register of all Right, all that extra stuff that’s impulse. You buy things because you feel like buying, McDonald’s will say, Do you want fries with that the reason they do that is because you’re already buying something, if they can get a little bit more money out of you, they will. So it’s a chance to leverage a purchase into another purchase before they go. So let me let me let me show you a couple of examples. For instance, you could say, Hey, thanks for buying this. Before I bring it up. Let me show a couple other paintings to you that I think you might like. Or I have a couple other paintings that I intended to really be hung together and a kind of a series and I thought I’d show them to you, let’s go over here. And look, they might just grab one of them and or a couple of them and buy something more, since they already have got themselves in the mindset of buying and sometimes you could say, well, you know, since you bought this, I’ll give you a little discount. I don’t like just discounting but sometimes if there’s a reason you know, you just bought a $2,000 painting. I’m gonna give You a little discount on this other $2,000 painting, because you just bought it. I think that makes sense. Anyway, that Hope that helps. The next question is from Marilyn in Albuquerque, New Mexico, which I love. Maryland says can you explain the Law of Reciprocity? I mentioned it in my book. And she wants to know how I do it to sell art. Well, that law of reciprocity just kind of explained in that last story where I sent a little extra piece of the painting. Simply stated human nature in most cultures is that when someone does something nice for us, we want to return the favor. If someone buys you dinner, next time, they’ll buy you dinner, right or you’ll buy them dinner, and somebody gives you a gift. You want to give them a gift in return and sales and marketing, it can really work well for you. So research indicates that no matter the size of the gift, if you give something people want to do something in return, and sometimes that will result in a sale that might be expensive. I have a friend that owns a gallery little artists own gallery. And when somebody comes in, they have this rack there in their rack has all these note cards of her paintings. And they’re like 595 each, they’re not expensive. And when they walk in, and she notes that there seemed to be somebody who could be a potential buyer, she’ll say, Hey, thanks for coming into the gallery, I’d love for you to take a cup, pick a couple of note cards and take them home with you. Because it’s good for me, you know, people will see your notes on my paintings, and it spreads the word. And they’re going to see that it’s a 595 card and they’re getting a couple of them and she just picked a couple out of the rack. Well, people feel good about that. The reality is that she doesn’t matter printer doesn’t cost her much to make them and it’s a really good entry point. So now they’re feeling like they need to do something in return. So they’re going to try a little harder, subconsciously, to maybe pick out something to buy because they want to return the favor. So they don’t necessarily know they’re doing it. Now you can use that small concept gift in many situations to warm hearts and draw people closer to you, it’s sometimes it’s just a matter of a little piece of candy or handing somebody a bottle of water. The little things like that make them feel obligated and feel like they want to return the favor. And the bigger it is, the better it works up to a point and then too much of a gift seems a little suspicious. And of course, it’s probably unaffordable anyway, but you don’t want to make anybody uncomfortable. Anyway, that’s the law of reciprocity. You can study that there’s so much information in marketing books around the world about the law of reciprocity and its reciprocal. The idea is that you’re giving back anyway, I hope this was helpful. I’m going to be doing three mornings of training, art marketing and sales training, how to sell art at our art marketing Bootcamp, three mornings in a row during the planet air convention this May and Denver people have come to that and told me it was worth the price of adventure admission. For the entire convention, I hope it’s true. I hope to deliver I got a lot of new stuff this year, I’m always learning new things and sharing new things and walking you through things that will help make you a better marketer. And of course, I have those all out on video as well and they’re different every year. So lots of marketing training available for you and of course, marketing training at art marketing. com. Anyway, this is this week’s art marketing minute.
This has been the marketing minute with Eric Rhoads. You can learn more at artmarketing.com
Eric Rhoads 66:34
if you’ve not got your tickets to the plein air convention, be sure to get one one of the last 115 at plein air convention. com be sure to also enter your best paintings at pleinairsalon.com try to go for that $15,000 Prize and the cover of plein air magazine. And if you’ve not seen my Sunday blog, I think we’re up to, I think pretty close to if not exceeded a quarter of a million readers now. It’s absolutely blow me away. It’s called Sunday coffee. And it’s growing because people tend to forward it to their friends, because I talk about life and philosophy and ideas and things like that. So it’s not so much about art and painting, believe it or not, but there’s a little of that in there too. Anyway, it’s called Sunday coffee, you can get it for free at coffeewitheric.com. That’s me, Eric. Well, it’s always fun to do this. We’ll get it get into this again next week. Next week. We’ve got some great stuff for you. So just come on back to the podcast. And you know, it’s always helpful. If you want to leave a comment, go to Apple or whatever your provider is, give us a rating and give us a comment whatever rating you want to give. Obviously, we like the better ones, but if you don’t like it, give it a low rating. Anyway, tell people what it means to you and why you’re listened to it and that’ll be helpful. So just look up planner podcast and then give a rating that’d be very helpful. So I’m Eric Rhoads, publisher and founder of plein air magazine. Remember, it’s a big beautiful world out there. You need to paint it. We’ll see you. Bye bye.
This has been the plenary podcast with plein air magazine’s Eric Rhoads. You can help spread the word about plein air painting by sharing this podcast with your friends. And you can leave a review or subscribe on iTunes. So it comes to you every week. And you can even reach Eric by email [email protected]. Be sure to pick up our free 240 plein air painting tips by some of America’s top painters. It’s free at pleinairtips.com. Tune in next week for more great interviews. Thanks for listening.